Swiss Dots 出品
Veer 图库联合出品
加利·哈斯特维特 导演
传奇字体 Helvetica
字体永远在对我们诉说着什么 Type is saying things to us all the time.
字体传达某种情绪和氛围 Typefaces express a mood, an atmosphere,
它们赋予词语某种色彩 they give words a certain coloring.
无论你望向何处 总会见到各种字体 Everywhere you look, you see typefaces.
但有一种可能是你见得最多的 那就是 Helvetica But there's probably one you see more than any other one, and that's Helvetica.
它们似乎原本就在那里 而不是来自何方 You know, there it is, and it just seems to come from nowhere.
你懂的 它们就好像是空气或者重力一样 You know, it seems like air, it seems like gravity.
很难恰当地评价它 It's hard to evaluate it,
就好像有人问你该如何评价乳白色的墙漆 it's like being asked what you think about off-white paint,
它就是如此 如此存在着 it's just... It just there.
你很难忽视如此体量巨大的东西 It's hard to get your head around something that big.
大部分人使用 Helvetica 是因为它无处不在 Most people who use Helvetica use it because it's ubiquitous.
就好像我们饥不择食到去麦当劳吃东西一样 It's like going to McDonalds instead of thinking about food.
因为它就在那里 街头巷尾到处都有 Because it's there, it's on every street corner.
所以我们就吃垃圾食品吧 因为街角就有 So let's eat crap, because it's on the corner.
对我来说 Helvetica 就是这样一个美好、永恒的东西 For me, Helvetica's just this beautiful, timeless thing.
如此美好的东西应该好好珍惜 对不对？ And certain things shouldn't be messed with, you know?
平面设计是信息沟通的框架 Graphic design is the communication framework,
它承载着各种各样的信息 诸如这个世界的现状 through which these messages, about what the world is now
我们对未来的向往 and what we should aspire to,
信息就是通过这样的方式传达给我们 it's the way they reach us.
设计师们担负着极其重大的责任 The designer has an enormous responsibility,
他们是那些将线路接入我们大脑的人 those are the people putting their wires into our heads.
纽约城市运输标志 马西莫·维涅里，1966 年
现在我应该说吗？不应该说吗？ Now should I talk? Should I not talk?
你希望我说点什么吗？ You want me to say something?
说吗 不说吗？ Say something, say nothing?
马西莫·维涅里
设计师的生活是战斗的生活 The life of a designer is a life of fight:
对抗丑陋的战斗 fight against the ugliness.
就好像医生对抗疾病一样 Just like a doctor fights against disease.
对我们而言 我们的周边漫布着这种视觉的“疾病” For us, the visual disease is what we have around,
我们尝试治愈这种“疾病”的方法 就是设计 and what we try to do is to cure it somehow, you know, with design.
好的字体排印设计师 对字母之间的距离永远有着高度的敏感 Good typographer always has sensitivity about the distance between the letters.
我们以为字体排印设计就是黑色加白色 We think typography is black and white.
而字体排印实际上是白的 根本不是黑的 Typography is really white, you know, it's not even black.
因为字体是由黑色形体之间的空白来定义的 It is the space between the blacks that really makes it.
这有点像音乐 In a sense it's like music,
音乐不是由音符 而是由音符之间的空间来定义的 it's not the notes, it's the space you put between the notes that makes the music.
举个例子 我们曾经为美国航空设计过 CI （企业识别） For instance, we designed the corporate identity for American Airlines.
这是 1966 年完成的 This was done in 1966,
我们进行了一个在当时来说比较新奇的设计 把两个单词合成一个 and the novelty at the time was the fact of making one word instead of two
我们把 American 和 Airlines 连接成一个单词 AmericanAirlines American Airlines by making AmericanAirlines all one word,
一半红色 一半蓝色 仅仅用颜色来区分 half red and half blue, just separated by the color.
还有比红色加蓝色更美国的吗？所以 这很完美 What could be more American than red and blue? You know, so it's perfect.
这是唯一一家在过去四十年来从未更改过 CI 的航空公司 It's the only airline in the last forty years that has not changed their identity.
所有航空公司都在来回改变 CI... 除了美国航空 他们没必要改 All the airlines coming and going and changing... American Airlines is still the same. There's no need to change,
他们还能怎么改进？ and how can they improve it?
他们已经是最好的了 懂吧 使用 Helvetica 的“美国航空” They got the best already, you know. AmericanAirlines in Helvetica.
我们总是倾向于使用极少数的几种字体 We always had a tendency to use very few typefaces.
不是我们不信任字体 It's not that we don't believe in type.
而是我们觉得好字体并不多 对吧 We believe there are not that many good typefaces, you know.
如果我说得大方一点 大概有一打 If I want to be really generous there's a dozen,
但基本上我使用的不会超过 3 种 basically I use no more than three.
有人觉得字体应该富有表现力 There are people that think that type should be expressive.
那是他们的看法 我不这么认为 They have a different point of view than mine.
我认为字体根本就不应该有表现力 我是说 I don't think type should be expressive at all. I mean...
我可以用任何字体来写这个“狗”字 I can write the word "dog" with any typeface
这个字并不需要看起来像一只狗 对吧 and it doesn't have to look like a dog. You know.
但就有人认为他们写的那个“狗”应该汪汪叫！你懂吧 But there are people that think when they write "dog" it should bark! You know.
Helvetica 是什么？它是一款为了满足人们对易读性的更高期盼的字体 What Helvetica is? It's a typeface that was generated by a desire of having better legibility.
它是一款现代字体 一款非常清晰的字体 It is a modern type. It is a very clear type.
它可以很好地应用于几乎一切场合 It's good for everything, pretty much.
你可以用 Helvetica 说“我爱你” You can say I love you in Helvetica.
你可以用 Helvetica 极细体 如果你希望使你的设计非常的精致 And you can say it with Helvetica Extra Light if you want to be really fancy.
或者你可以用 Helvetica 超黑体：如果你希望表现强烈或热情的感觉 Or you can say it in Extra Bold if it's really intensive and passionate,
你懂的 非常有效 you know, and it might work.
你还可以说“我恨你” You can also say I hate you.
我可以写... 我当然还可以用 Helvetica 写几个字母 比如说... You know, I can write... You know. l certainly can write a few letters in Helvetica saying that...
“我恨你 华盛顿！” 如果我可以这么说的话 to Washington in particular, if I can put it that way.
Helvetica 的出现 是我们期待已久的 When Helvetica came about, we were all ready for it.
它总是能正确地表达出我们所期望的含义 It just had all the right connotations we were looking for,
适用于一切必须要明确传达的信息：现代 for anything that had to spell out loud and clear: modern.
五十年代在平面设计的发展历程中是一个有趣的时期 The 1950s is an interesting period in the development of graphic design.
在战后 In that postwar period,
在第二次世界大战的恐怖和巨变之后 after the horror and cataclysm of the Second World War,
瑞克·波伊诺 设计作家
一种理想主义的情感 在一些 也可能是很多设计师当中产生 there's a real feeling of idealism among some designers, many perhaps,
然后蔓延至全世界 尤其是在欧洲 across the world, certainly in Europe.
他们认为设计本身也是需要重建和复兴的一部分 The design is part of that need to rebuild, to reconstruct,
让世界更开放 to make things more open,
运行更平稳 更民主 make them run more smoothly, be more democratic.
设计师们有着强烈的社会责任感 There was this real sense of social responsibility among designers.
这一时期 也是极端现代主义者的早期试验 And this is the period when the early experiments of the high Modernist period
开始解体、理性化、条理化的时期 start to be broken down, rationalized, codified,
我们迎来了所谓“国际平面设计风格” you get the emergence of this so-called international typographic style
或者说“瑞士风格” or Swiss style.
五十年代瑞士设计师们的推波助澜 使得这种风潮推向极致 And it's Swiss designers in the 1950s who are really driving that along.
这就是 Helvetica 产生的时代背景 This is where Helvetica comes in.
它就诞生于那一时期 1957 年 Helvetica emerges in that period, in 1957,
时代呼唤一种理性的字体 where there's felt to be a need for rational typefaces
它应当适用于各种现代的信息 which can be applied to all kinds of contemporary information,
不管是用于标识系统 或是企业识别 whether it's sign systems or corporate identity
将当代世界的视觉手法呈现于公众 and present those visual expressions of the modern world to the public
以一种清晰、明了的方式 in an intelligible, legible way.
所以 我要说的是 在它背后支撑着的 So, it's underpinned, is what I'm saying
是众多理想主义的设计师们所共同拥有的这种伟大的情感 by this great feeling shared by many designers of idealism.
阿姆斯特丹
维姆·克劳威尔
我是个现代主义者 你知道的 I'm a Modernist, you know.
我就是在那个时代培养出来的 I was trained in that period,
我生活在那个时代 我爱现代主义 I lived in that period. I love Modernism.
下周我就要去伦敦 参观那里的现代主义展 I go next week to London to see the exhibition of Modernism.
我需要它 你知道 I want it, you know.
噢 那是我的生命 And well, that's my life.
我周围全都是那时候的家具 我已经不能改变自己了 I'm surrounded with furniture from that period. I can't change myself any more.
但看看今天的设计师们 他们什么字体都用 今天这种字体 But if I see today designers, they use all typefaces. One day one typeface,
明天那种字体 完全取决于当时的心情喜好 the other day the other typeface, all in favor of a certain atmosphere,
我就不是... 我不喜欢这样 I'm not... I don't like that.
我永远倾向于清晰的风格 I'm always interested in clarity.
它应该是清楚的 It should be clear,
应该是可读的 也应该是直截了当的 it should be readable, it should be straightforward.
所以渐渐地 我开始在自己的设计中使用栅格 So I started using, gradually, grids for my design,
在我为博物馆所做的一个目录设计中 for my catalogues for museums.
我发明了一种栅格 在这种栅格中 I invented a grid, and within the grid
我可以任意发挥 I played my game.
但从不会脱离栅格线 But always along the lines of the grid,
所以总是会有某种秩序在里面 so that there is a certain order in it.
这便是我使用栅格的原因 That's why I use grids,
所以有人叫我“栅格怪人” that's why they call me "Gridnik."
对我而言 这是一种创造秩序的工具 For me, it's a tool of creating order,
而所谓字体排印 就是创造秩序 and creating order is typography.
我很晚才开始使用电脑 I started late with the computer.
大约在 1993 年我买了自己的第一台电脑 I think it was in 1993 that I bought my first computer
然后我开始自学 到现在操纵自如 and I learned myself and I can handle it now quite well
但比不过年轻人 but not like the young people.
我可能比较慢 但是一样能完成 I am slow with it and I can do it.
我觉得很有意思 But I'm very much interested and
我想如果在六十年代我们有电脑就好了 I would have liked to have in the sixties the computer
因为这样我们的工作就可以完成得更快 完成得更好 because we can speed up our work, we can do it so much better,
特别是当你需要在作品中使用图层的时候 and especially all the layers you can bring into your work.
在六十年代 在设计中使用 2 - 3 个图层是一件极为麻烦的事情 We had the greatest problem in the sixties to bring two or three layers into the work.
你需要求助于摄影技术 用尽一切疯狂的技巧 You need to do it by photograph, you did all kinds of crazy techniques
做一张海报要花好几天 and working on a poster took us days.
而现在 不到一个半小时 你就可以有不同的创意 做出几个备选设计 And now within half an hour you have your ideas and you can make variations
然后选出一个最好的 and make a good choice.
计算机不能帮你做出更好的设计 You can't do better design with a computer,
但可以极大地提升你的工作效率 but you can speed up your work enormously.
- 我可以开始了吗？ -好的 - Shall I begin? - Sure.
这是我设计的几张关于荷兰风格派运动的邮票 I made these post stamps on the Stijl movement.
在开始的时候 你看看这些草图 In the beginning, if you see the sketches,
我原本打算用凡·杜斯堡的字体 一名荷兰的风格派运动艺术家 I tried to use typefaces from van Doesburg, one of the artists of the Destijl movement.
然而在最终稿中 我决定 Then I decided for the final designs
放弃这些字体 因为插画本身已经表明了它的时代 not to use these typefaces because the illustration is already from that period,
最后我用了最中性的一款字体：Helvetica and I used the most neutral typeface, Helvetica.
相对于十九世纪的那些字体 Helvetica 是一个非常重要的突破 Helvetica was a real step from the nineteenth-century typefaces.
稍微有一点机械的味道 It was a little more machined,
没有太多人工的痕迹 it was doing away with these manual details in it,
它给我们留下很深的印象 因为它更为“中性” and we were impressed by that, because it was more neutral.
而中立主义 是我们喜爱的一个字眼 懂吧 And neutralism was a word that we loved. You know.
它就应该是中立的 It should be neutral;
它本身不应该包含任何含义 它应该... it shouldn't have a meaning in itself. It should...
含义应该来自于文本的内容中 而非字体的表象 the meaning is in the content of the text, not in the typeface.
这正是我们如此喜爱 Helvetica 的原因 That's why we loved Helvetica very much.
向人们解释我的职业总是要费我很多的口舌 I have to say that for a lot of my life
我很害怕向别人解释我的工作 I rather dreaded the moment of having to explain to someone...
比如说 在飞机上 或是火车上 你遇到了一个很好的邻座 you know, you find yourself sitting next to some nice person on a plane
他们总是免不了会问及你的职业 or a train and they ask you sooner or later what you do
如果你说自己是一个字体设计师 通常他们的表情是一脸茫然 and if you say type designer, they generally look completely blank.
不过偶尔 也会有人能真正理解这个术语 Occasionally, someone will actually know the term
但接着他们会说：“我以为他们都死光了” but then will say, "I thought they were all dead."
马修·卡特
从九十年代中期开始 Since I did some work for Microsoft
我为微软开发屏幕字体 in the mid-nineties on screen fonts,
主要是 Verdana 和 Georgia particularly Verdana and Georgia,
我有过好几次很搞笑的偶遇 他们会说 I've had quite comical encounters with people who will say,
“噢 你就是做字体的 "Oh, you work with fonts.
我们办公室贴满便签 提醒我们都要开始用一种叫做 Verdana 的东西 We just got this memo round the office saying we've all got to start using something called Verdana.
你听说过吗？” Have you ever heard of it?"
而在三、四十年前 我就不会遇到这样搞笑的谈话 Funny conversations that never would have happened to me thirty, forty years ago.
我的父亲是一个字体排印师 不过他并没有逼着我子承父业 My dad was a typographer, and although he didn't push me to follow in his footsteps
哈里·卡特
那时我在英国的高中毕业 在去读大学之前我有一年的空闲 when I left school, high school in the UK, I had a year to fill before going to university
在这段时间我作为一个没有薪水的实习生 and I got sent as a trainee, an unpaid trainee, intern,
去荷兰一家造字厂实习 to a type foundry in the Netherlands,
我花了整整一年时间 学习一种后来被证明毫无用处的手艺 where I spent a year learning what turned out to be a completely obsolete trade
手工造字 of making type by hand.
每天做的就是切割钢铁的字模 按实际尺寸雕刻 It was a matter of cutting letters in steel, engraving them at actual size.
我怀疑那时我在那里一整天都做不出一个字母 You know, I doubt if I ever got up quite to one letter a day at that time.
所以我可以说 我已经亲身经历了所有的造字方式 So, you know, I could say that really I've made type by practically all the means
在我工作的这 50 年、51 年里 it's ever been made in the fifty, fifty-one years that I've been working.
很难用一两句话说明字体设计师的工作方式 It's hard to generalize about the way type designers work.
我们的工作方法不尽相同 There isn't a generality of us.
但是我想从事这一行的大多数字体设计师 But I think that most type designers if they were sitting in this chair
大体上来说都是这样开始的 would essentially start in much the same way.
我通常会从一个小写的 h 开始 I'd probably start with a lowercase h.
它会告诉我们一些信息 首先 这是一个“无衬线”还是“衬线”字体 it tells me, first of all, whether this is a sans-serif or a serif typeface.
如果是一个“衬线字体” 它应该是这样的 If it were a serif face it would look like this
这就是所谓的“衬线” 这些小小的“脚” here are the serifs so called, these little feet
在字母主干笔画的底部和顶部 on the bottom and top of the principal strokes of the letter.
它是粗体吗 还是一个细体 这种衬线体有什么特性 Are they heavy, are they light, what is the nature of the serif,
在字形上是否有着粗细的对比 is there a lot of thick-thin contrast in the letter form;
整体高度比例如何 h 的“上伸部”占多少 what are the proportions of the overall height, the ascender, so-called of the h,
与 x 等高部分占多少 and the x-height part of it,
然后由于 h 是一个直线边的字母 Then because an h is a straight-sided letter,
我会做一个圆形的字母 比如说一个 o 放在它旁边 I would then do a round letter like an o along side it.
我就可以直观的比较 o 曲线部分的“重量”是否能匹配 h 的直线部分 I can get a sense of how the weight of the curved part of the o relates to the straight part of the h.
仅仅这样一对简单的字母 就携带着大量决定这套字体外形的基因 And already there is a huge amount of DNA is just a couple of letterforms like that.
然后我可能会做一个小写的 p I'd then probably do something like a lowercase p
因为它一半是直边 一半是圆形的 because it's half straight and half round;
同时 它还有一个“下降部” and also it has a descending stroke,
这是我想要确立的另外一个“垂直维度” which is another vertical dimension that I would be interested in establishing.
然后我就以此为依据 接着往下做 I would then build on that.
如果你有了一个 h 你就已经拥有了极其丰富的信息 If you've got an h you've got an awful lot of information
足以建立这些小写的 m、n、和 u about m, n, and u in the lower case.
你有了一个 p 就等于有了一个 q 和 b 还有 d 等等 依此类推 You've got a p you've got q and b and d and so on.
然后 我会尽早地把它们匹配成单词 And then just as soon as possible I would get them into words
或是让它们看起来像单词 or something that looked like words
因为如果要评判一款字体 它的阅读体验是至关重要的 because for me the experience of reading something is so critical in judging it as a typeface
我认为这是评价一款字体性能表现的“酸性测试” because I find that is the acid test of how a typeface performs.
对我而言 Helvetica 最迷人的特质之一 One of the most characteristic and to my mind beautiful things about Helvetica
就是它水平的收尾 你可以在小写的 a、c、e 和 g 中看到 is these horizontal terminals, you see in the lower case a and c and e and g.
正是末端的这种水平切削决定了字体的整个结构走向 The whole structure is based on this horizontal slicing off of the terminals.
一个字体设计师看到这些字符 禁不住要问自己： It's very hard for a designer to look at these characters and say,
我还能怎样改进它们？我还能怎样让它们有所不同？ how would I improve them? How would I make them any different?
它们看上去是那样的完美 They just seem to be exactly right.
我很庆幸没人找我去... I'm glad no one asked me to...
预言 Helvetica 的未来 to second-guess Helvetica
因为我实在不知道该怎么做 because I wouldn't know what to do.
这是 Helvetica 最原始的样稿 This is the original type specimen of Helvetica
在它成为 Helvetica 之前 它有个原始名称：Die Neue Haas Grotesk before it was Helvetica. It had its original name, Die Neue Haas Grotesk.
Helvetica 诞生的整个故事 The whole story of how Helvetica came into being
并不是很清晰的 至少对我而言 is not entirely clear, at least to me.
据说 不过我确信是事实 It is said, and I think it's true,
爱德华德·霍夫曼 Hass 造字厂当时的老板 that Eduard Hoffmann, who had been the boss at Haas type foundry,
爱德华德·霍夫曼
他想为 Akzidenz Grotesk 这款字体做一个现代的版本 wished to make a modernized version of Akzidenz Grotesk,
那是一款传统的十九世纪德国无衬线字体 which was essentially a traditional nineteenth-century German sans-serif,
他的想法是让它的外形更简炼一些之类的 and his method of doing that was sort of to clean it up and so on.
当然 最后是马克斯·米丁格动手绘制了 Helvetica 的图样 And it was of course Max Miedinger who made the drawings for Helvetica.
我记得我在六、七十年代认识的一些人这么说过 I received the impression from people I knew back in the sixties and seventies
当年霍夫曼在其中承担的角色其实是相当重要的 that Hoffmann's part in this was a very much more significant one
并非像你在那些教科书中看到的那么简单： than you might just assume by reading in a textbook
“Helvetica 由马克斯·米丁格设计” that Max Miedinger was the designer of Helvetica.
明兴施泰因，瑞士
Haas 造字厂旧址
Helvetica 在此诞生
你可以很确定地说 You can easily say
这是共同创作 this was a joint product
阿尔弗雷德·霍夫曼 Haas 造字厂前任主管
由米丁格和我父亲共同完成 of both Miedinger and my father.
米丁格无法单独完成一个字体的设计 Miedinger couldn't produce a typeface alone;
我父亲也不行 neither could my father.
但如果是两个人在一起共同努力 就能够有所成就 But when both were working hard together then something good resulted.
这就是当年的第一个测试版本：Neue Haas Grotesk Here are the first trials of Neue Haas Grotesk,
这才是 Helvetica 的原名 which was the first name of Helvetica.
我熟悉 Haas 造字厂的工作流程 I knew the way things worked at Haas
所以我逐渐发现了爱德华德·霍夫曼在其中发挥的重要作用 and I had gradually picked up on the importance of Eduard Hoffman,
迈克·帕克 美国 Mergenthaler Linotype 公司 字体排印部总监， 1961-1981 年
由于他那种几乎是病态的羞怯 and his almost pathological shyness
他喜欢借助他人之手来进行工作 and the way that he would use other people's hands.
但是 天啊 你仍然能从这些字体工作中看出 But boy could you see his mind at work on the faces
这里面浸透着他的心血 where he was deeply involved.
这是他当年的一张便条 You have here a note by Eduard Hoffmann
都是他的修改建议 indicating all the desired corrections.
“大写 Y 太过纤细” "The capital Y is too slim.
“大写 A 也是过细” Capital A is also too slim."
当我们谈论 Haas Neue Grotesk 或者说 Helvetica 的设计的时候 When you talk about the design of Haas Neue Grotesk or Helvetica,
我们实际上谈论的是它们与其“负形”之间的相互关系 what it's all about is the interrelationship of the negative shape
实体与空间之间的关系 the figure-ground relationship,
字体内部 以及字体之间的空间形态 the shapes between characters and within characters,
以及黑色部分 如果你喜欢这样称呼的话；和过墨的部分 with the black if you like, with the inked surface.
而瑞士人更关注于字体的负形 And the Swiss pay more attention to the background,
所以字谷与字形间的空间就把整个字母固定住了 so that the counters and the space between characters just hold the letters.
你看不出丝毫的松动 I mean you can't imagine anything moving;
它就是如此的结实 it is so firm.
这不是一套弯曲成形的字体 It's not a letter that's bent to shape;
每个字母实际上是存在于一个强有力的矩阵所包围着的空间 it's a letter that lives in a powerful matrix of surrounding space.
这实在是... 太出色了 当所有的一切完成之后 It's... oh it's brilliant when it's done well.
我父亲对于这个字体应该呈现怎样的面貌 My father had clear ideas
有着很清晰的想法 how the typeface should look like.
所以我父亲和米丁格坐在一起 然后他开始绘图 So my father and Miedinger sat together, and he started drawing.
这里有一份字体的小样 Here you have a proof of an alphabet
根据马克斯·米丁格的陈述 with observations by Max Miedinger.
当米丁格在 Haas 工作的时候 其实并不是作为一个设计师 When Miedinger worked for Haas he did not work as a designer.
他实际上是一个销售员 He was actually a salesman.
马克斯·米丁格
他的工作就是在瑞士到处转 His job was to travel around Switzerland
招揽字体的订单 taking orders for fonts of type.
从专业上来说 他是一个平面设计师 By profession he was a graphic artist,
不过他意识到 卖字体能让他赚更多的钱 but he realized that he could make more money by selling foundry type.
我父亲说过：每当我对新字体有些想法时 我确信你能把它设计出来 But my father said, If ever I have an idea of a new typeface, I'm sure that you could design it.
我这里有一份字体样册 I have here a type specimen book
是关于两家字体公司的 Stempel 和 Haas of both type foundries, Stempel and Haas.
你要知道 Haas 是由德国字体公司 Stempel 控股的 You have to know that Haas was controlled by the German type foundry Stempel.
而之后 Stempel 又被 Linotype 收购 And in turn Stempel was also controlled by Linotype.
Linotype 总部 巴特洪堡，德国
Linotype 拥有 Haas 和 Stempel 造字厂， 并同时拥有 Helvetica 的版权
下面让我们到地下室去看看能否找到什么关于 Helvetica 的档案 Now we go down to the cellar and see in our archives where we can find Helvetica.
奥特玛·霍夫尔 Linotype 市场总监
我们要找的是 24 号 Here we have number 24.
在这里 Helvetica 的画稿 And there it is, the Helvetica drawings.
Stempel 的市场总监希望有一个更好的名字 The marketing director at Stempel had the idea to give it a better name
布鲁诺·施泰纳特 Linotype 前任总裁
因为 Neue Haas Grotesk（意为：Haas 的新怪物） because Neue Haas Grotesk didn't sound very good for a
对于一款要销往美国的字体 这样一个名字听起来并不是很好 typeface that was intended to be sold in the United States.
Stempel 建议用 Helvetia 这个名字 Stempel suggested the name of Helvetia.
这一点非常重要：Helvetia 是瑞士的拉丁语名称 This is very important: Helvetia is the Latin name of Switzerland.
我父亲说 这不可能 And my father said, That's impossible.
你不能用一个国家的名字来称呼一个字体 You cannot call a typeface after the name of a country.
所以他说 你们为什么不管它叫 Helvetica（Helvetia 的形容词）呢？ So he said, why don't you call it Helvetica.
所以 换种说法 这个字体将是“瑞士的”字体 So in other words this would be the Swiss typeface.
然后他们同意了 And they agreed.
我认为 Helvetica 在当时是一个完美的名字 I think Helvetica was a perfect name at the time.
赫尔曼·察普夫 字体设计师
瑞士字体排印设计在当时也是闻名于世 And Swiss typography at that time also was well-known worldwide.
所以 Helvetica 是这个字体命名的最佳方案 So it was the best solution for Helvetica
它顺利进入市场 to get into the market.
Helvetica 一经推出 便势不可挡 Once we'd introduced Helvetica, it really ran away.
它无疑是当时的设计师们期盼已久的 It was exactly what the designers were looking for.
我的意思是 它的成功是空前绝后的 I mean, I don't think there's been such a hot thing since
由于字体的正负形关系得到了良好的处理 as the figure-ground relationship properly executed
它就好像... 哦 一次即将爆发的山体滑坡 懂吧 and it was... oh, just a landslide waiting to go down the mountain. You know.
一发不可收拾 And away it went.
我可以想像 当时这个字体给人的感觉真是太美妙了 I imagine there was a time when it just felt so good
将那些陈旧、邋遢、粗糙、丑陋的字体 to take something that was old and dusty and homemade and crappy looking
全部换成 Helvetica and replace it with Helvetica.
就好像你把那些脏旧东西外面的污秽剥离掉 It just must have felt like you were scraping the crud off of like filthy old things
迈克·布雷特 平面设计师
让它们焕然一新 实际上 and restoring them to shining beauty. And in fact,
你懂的 六十年代的企业识别 大多由那些东西构成 you know, corporate identity in the sixties, that's what it sort of consisted of.
你懂的 来找你的客户往往带着成堆的五十年代土气的企宣手册 You know. Clients would come in and they'd have, you know, piles of goofy old brochures from the fifties
上面有各种奇怪的形状 蠢笨难看的照片 that hide like shapes on them and goofy bad photographs.
他们有一些信头上可能写着“联合制品” They'd have some letterhead that would say Amalgamated Widget on the top
用着某种傻气的字体 也可能是一个手写体在“联合制品”之上 in some goofy, maybe a script typeface, above Amalgamated Widget
会有一个描绘他们在爱荷华州帕迪尤卡总部形象的 it would have an engraving showing their headquarters
版画图案 旁边是冒着黑烟的烟囱 懂吧 in Paducah, lowa, with smokestacks belching smoke, you know.
如果在 1965、1966 年左右 你走进一家企业形象咨询事务所 And then you go to a corporate identity consultant circa 1965, 1966,
他们会把那些东西摊在那里然后说 这是你们现在的信封信笺 and they would take that and lay it here and say, Here's your current stationery,
然后 这是我们提议的方案 and all it implies, and this is what we're proposing.
在它旁边 是那冒烟的烟囱 And next to that, next to the belching smokestacks and the
在婚礼字体和象牙色纸张旁边 nuptial script and the ivory paper,
是挺括而雪亮的纸张 they'd have a crisp bright white piece of paper
再没有那些 “联合制品 始于 1857” and instead of Amalgamated Widget, founded 1857,
仅仅用 Helvetica 中黑体写着 Widgco it just would say Widgco, in Helvetica Medium
你能想像那是多么令人振奋和激动？ Can you imagine how bracing and thrilling that was?
就如同你刚爬出一片沙漠 That must have seemed like you'd crawled through a desert
满嘴都是肮脏的沙尘 with your mouth just caked with filthy dust
然后这时有人给你递上一杯清澈见底 提神醒脑的冰水 and then someone is offering you a clear, refreshing, distilled, icy glass of water
让你把所有的不快、历史的包袱全都抛之脑后 to clear away all this horrible, kind of like, burden of history.
那绝对是妙极了 你知道这太棒了 It must have been just fantastic. And you know it must have been fantastic
因为这样的事会接二连三连四的发生 because it was done over and over and over again.
这就是我前面所说的：1953 年的《生活》杂志 So this is what I'm talking about, this is Life Magazine 1953.
一个又一个广告 毫无例外的重复着那一时期特有的视觉设计上的陋习 One ad after another in here, that just kind of shows every single visual bad habit that was endemic in those days.
到处都是小丑般的手写美术字 You've got zany hand lettering everywhere,
用花体字来显示优雅 swash typography to signify elegance,
感叹号、感叹号、感叹号 exclamation points, exclamation points, exclamation points.
这里用婚礼请柬的花饰字体和版式写着 Cursive wedding invitation typography down here reading,
“几乎每个人都会鉴赏至美” "Almost everyone appreciates the best."
这就是五十年代的视觉环境 那个时代的一切东西都这个模样 This was everywhere in the Fifties, this is how everything looked in the Fifties.
我们来到... 这时候 Helvetica 已经开始大显身手 一样的商品 You cut to... this is after Helvetica was in full swing, same product.
没有人物 没有虚伪的笑容 No people, no smiling fakery,
就是一大杯美丽的冰镇可乐 just a beautiful big glass of ice-cold Coke.
在下面的标语写着：它就这么真实 The slogan underneath: It's the Real Thing.
句号 Period.
可口可乐 句号 Coke, period.
用 Helvetica 写着 句号 In Helvetica, period.
有问题吗？当然没有 喝可口可乐 句号 Any questions? Of course not. Drink Coke, period.
简约 Simple.
政府和企业喜欢 Helvetica Governments and corporations love Helvetica
因为一方面它令他们看上去中立和有效率 because on one hand it makes them seem neutral and efficient,
莱斯莉·萨万 媒体作家
柔和的字形也让他们看起来更人性化 but also the smoothness of the letters makes them seem almost human.
这一直是他们试图传达的品质 That is a quality they all want to convey
因为他们一直想改变他们的形象： because of course they have the image they are always fighting
独断、官僚、 that they are authoritarian they're bureaucratic,
让人失去理性、压迫 you lose yourself in them, they're oppressive.
然而 改用 Helvetica So instead, by using Helvetica
就可以使他们看起来亲切、透明、可靠 they can come off seeming more accessible, transparent, and accountable,
所有这些热门词汇都是当今的企业和政府 which are all the buzzwords for what corporations and governments
理应具备的形象 are supposed to be today.
现在他们可以不必真的亲切、可靠、透明 Now they don't have to be accessible or accountable or transparent
但他们可以看上去如此 but they can look that way.
我们从 IRS（美国国税局）拿到的表格用的是 Helvetica Our tax forms from the lRS are in Helvetica.
EPA（环保署）也用它 The EPA uses it
现代人希望显得简洁、正式、高效 now there's someone who wants to look clean and official and efficient.
设计师们 我想甚至是读者们 为这款字体赋予了种种外在的含义 Designers, and I think even readers, invest so much of the surroundings in the typeface.
美国服饰用 Helvetica 显得随意 American Apparel uses Helvetica and it looks cheeky.
而美国航空用 Helvetica 显得稳重 American Airlines uses it and it looks sober.
这不仅仅因为他们所使用的字重 字距 和颜色 And it's not just a matter of the weight they use and the letter spacing and the colors.
还因为字体本身就支持开放性的解读 There's something about the typeface I think really invites this sort of open interpretation.
乔纳森·赫夫勒 托比亚斯·弗里尔-琼斯
可以说 字体分为两种类型 You could say the typefaces are either
一类支持完全开放性的解读 those that are fully open to interpretation
另一类却仅仅与一种含义相关联 or merely have one association attached to them.
一款由冰锥或棒棒糖之类玩意构成的字体只表达一种意思 A typeface made of icicles or candy canes or something just says one thing.
而 Helvetica 却可以表达一切 And Helvetica maybe says everything.
或许这就是它的魅力之一 And that's perhaps part of its appeal.
我是说字体设计中非常缺乏可用于描述字体特性的术语 I mean Typography has this real poverty of terms to describe things.
仅有的就是 x高度 字高 字重之类 Beyond x-height and cap height and weight and so on.
当托比亚斯和我在一起合作项目时 I find when Tobias and I work on projects together
我们喜欢用很多很主观的词汇来描述字体的特性 we tend to use a lot of qualitative terms that are entirely subjective.
几年前为《君子》杂志制作字体时 我记得我们曾说 Working on the typeface for Esquire years ago, I remember us saying,
我记得我说 不 这是土星五号时期美国国家航空航天局的感觉 I remember my saying. No, this has that Saturn V rocket early NASA quality.
它应该是那种橘色塑料的好利获得打字机 罗马假日浓缩咖啡的感觉 It needs to have that orange plastic Olivetti typewriter, Roman Holiday espresso feeling.
- 你绝对知道我在说什么 -对的 - I know you got exactly what I was saying. - I did.
如果不借助于外在的事物 我们就很难描述字体的特性 But it's that there's really no way to describe the qualitative parts of a typeface without resorting to things are fully outside it.
我们经常这样讲：你看 这有点萨蒂（十九世纪法国作曲家）的感觉 And we're constantly saying, You know, this has that, it feels kind of Erik Satie;
它应该是德彪西（十九世纪法国作曲家）的感觉 it needs to be Debussy.
或者 这看上去有点像背带裤 Or this has a kind of belt and suspenders look.
它应该 嗯 更优雅一点... 手工做的鞋一样的感觉 It needs to be, you know, much more elegant... hand-lasted shoe.
我已经收集这些标牌好些年了 I've been collecting these signs for a couple of years now
我最喜欢的是这些标牌 这样的我有好多 and one of my favorites is these signs. I have a number of these.
这就是纽约街道上的标牌以前的样子 This is what the street signs in New York City used to look like.
它实际上看起来更清晰 This actually functions so much more clearly
比我们现在在街上看到的要更高效 and so much more effectively than what we see out on the street now.
现代主义经典理论认为 The sort of classical modernist line on
一个读者对待字体的方式应该是： how aware a reader should be of a typeface is that
读者根本不应该意识到字体的存在 they shouldn't be aware of it at all.
它应该像一个水晶的高脚杯 It should be this crystal goblet
只是放置 展示和组织信息的一个容器 there to just hold and display and organize the information.
但我想实际情况并没有那么简单 But I don't think it's really quite as simple as that.
我想即使他们在阅读时没有意识到字体的存在 I think even if they're not consciously aware of the typeface they're reading,
他们还是会受到字体的影响 they'll certainly be affected by it.
就像安排不适当的演员在剧中演出会影响观众的观看体验一样 The same way that an actor that's miscast in a role will affect someone's experience
当然他们一样能看明白电影或戏剧的情节 of a movie or play that they're watching. They'll still follow the plot,
但是 你知道 他们会更难以相信、激动、或感动 but, you know, be less convinced or excited or affected.
Gotham 字体 托比亚斯·弗里尔-琼斯，2002 年
我认为文字设计的情形与之类似 I think that typography is similar to that,
设计师挑选字体实质上就像是一个导演在挑选角色 where the designer choosing typefaces is essentially a casting director.
在我的世界里 很少有不能使用的字体 There's very little type in my world outside of work.
和其他人一样 我发觉字体在我们周围无处不在 Like everybody else I'm aware of fonts being used in my environment.
你知道 有人嘲笑说平面设计师不能看历史题材的影片 You know, the standing joke that graphic designers can't see historical movies
因为里面的字体使用经常是错误的 这个笑话其实是真的 because the fonts are always wrong is certainly true.
外面的世界和工作室内真的很不一样 It definitely makes the world outside the office very different.
有一次 我和未婚妻想要记住我们家附近一个饭店的位置 My fiancée and I were trying to remember the location of a restaurant in our neighborhood,
她记的是那家饭店 and she remembered it as that new place
离干洗店有几个街区 that's just a couple blocks down from the dry cleaner.
而我记的是 I remembered it as that new place just a couple blocks down from
它离那个字间距很糟糕的路牌有几个街区 the place with the bad letter spacing out front.
没有人不知道 Helvetica 是什么 Nobody doesn't know what Helvetica is,
我的意思是 在我职业生涯之初 还没人用 PC 或 Mac I mean, at the beginning of our careers certainly before anybody had a PC or a Mac,
没有人知道字体是什么 no one knew what fonts were.
但我想即使在那时人们也知道什么是 Helvetica I think even then people might have known what Helvetica was.
它能够获得如此广泛的授权 The fact that it's been so heavily licensed
以一种如此平民化的技术形式面向大众 and made available through these very populist technologies
也说明了 在某种程度上它作为终极字体的神话还将延续下去 has kind of furthered the mythology that it's the ultimate typeface in some way.
即便是在我们这些专业人士圈内 也无可避免 And even for us professionals that's hard to escape from.
我发现自己开始有些相信这个说法： I kind of find myself buying into the idea that
“哦 无衬线字体的百年演变 "Oh, the sans-serif evolved for a hundred years
其终极表现就是 Helvetica” and the ultimate expression was Helvetica."
然后意识到 等一下 这好像不太对 无论从历史上 And realizing, wait a minute that's not quite true, historically
美学上 文化上 还是政治上都说不过去 or aesthetically or culturally or politically.
但是它确实给人一种“无衬线字体的最终形式”的感觉 But there's something about it that does have the feeling of finality to it,
这是我对这款字体理解的一个总结 This is the conclusion of one line of reasoning with this typeface,
任何在它之后的东西 在某种意义上来说可能永远只能是第二 and perhaps everything after it is secondary in some way.
艾瑞克·斯毕克曼
我绝对是一个字体狂热者 一种不治之症 如果它不是致命的 I'm obviously a typomaniac, which is an incurable, if not mortal, disease.
我不能解释这些 我只是喜欢 我就是喜欢看着这些字体 I can't explain it I just love, I just like looking at type,
我从中获得了太多的乐趣 它们是我的朋友 你懂的 I just get a total kick out of it. They are my friends. You know.
其他人喜欢看瓶中的美酒 或者你懂的... 女孩的臀部 Other people look at bottles of wine or whatever, or... you know, girls' bottoms,
我从看字体中享受乐趣 I get kicks out of looking at type.
是有点烦人 我必须承认 这样子做是很书呆子气的 It's a little worrying I must admit, it's a very nerdish thing to do.
我是一个非常多话的人 I'm very much a word person.
所以字体设计对我来说很明显是一种延伸 So that's why typography for me is the obvious extension.
它使我的话语变得可见 It just makes my words visible.
一款真正的字体需要韵律 需要对比 字体来源于于书写 A real typeface needs rhythm, needs contrast; it comes from handwriting.
这就是我可以读懂你写的字 你可以读懂我的的原因 And that's why I can read your handwriting, and you can read mine.
我很清楚我们的书写与 Helvetica And I'm sure our handwriting is miles away from Helvetica
或者和任何可以清晰辨认的字有很大的差别 or anything that would be considered legible.
我们可以读它是因为它富有韵律 在它其中存在着对比 But we can read it because there's a rhythm to it, there's a contrast to it.
上述这些东西 Helvetica 丝毫没有 Helvetica hasn't got any of that.
（为什么它在五十年后仍旧如此流行？） Why fifty years later it's still so popular?
我不知道 为什么糟糕的品位无处不在？ I don't know. What is bad taste ubiquitous?
不 实际上 Helvetica 在当时是一款好的字体 No, actually, Helvetica was a good typeface at the time.
它确实适应了当时的需求 It really answered a demand.
但是现在它成为了一种默认选择 But now it's become one of those defaults that,
部分是因为电脑的发展 到现在已经 20 年了 partly because of the proliferation of the computer, which is now twenty years,
我指的是个人电脑 the PC I mean.
它是苹果系统的默认字体 然后 Windows 系统也是 You know, it was the default on the Apple Macintosh and then it became the default on Windows
微软抄袭了苹果的一切 你知道的 which copied everything that Apple did, as you know.
从界面到其他所有的一切 然后他们制作了一个克隆版本：Arial Interface and everything else, and then they did the clone version, Arial,
比 Helvetica 还烂 which is worse than Helvetica
但达到了同样的目的 现在它很可能再也不会消失了 but fills the same purpose I think. Now it's probably never going to go away
因为它无处不在 它是默认项 它是空气 because it's ubiquitous; it's a default. It's air,
你知道 它已经成为现实 让我们别无选择 you know, it's just there. There's no choice.
你必须要呼吸 所以你必须要使用 Helvetica You have to breathe, so you have to use Helvetica.
它有自己的风格 其他字体也是如此 It brings style with it; every typeface does.
它有某种... It has a certain...
就像一个人 如果你腰腹比较粗 well, it's like a person, if you are slightly heavy in the middle
你就不会穿着紧身T恤到处走你看上去会像个傻子 you're not going to walk around in tight T-shirts. You'd look like an idiot.
Helvetica 也有它的缺陷 所以它需要某种... And Helvetica is heavy in the middle. So it has a certain...
它的周围需要留有空间 需要很多的空白 it needs certain space around it, needs a lot of white space;
在磅数的选择上需要非常的谨慎 it needs very carefully to be looked at the weight gradations.
它的两边也需要许多空间 It needs a lot of space sideways also.
然后它就变得能清晰易读 但是 Then it's very legible, but
如果把它设置得很小、很紧凑 或者像某些现代设计师那样设置得很细 very small and very tightly done and very lightly as modern designers do,
那就是一场噩梦 完全是一场噩梦 it's a nightmare, a total nightmare.
如果我没有尝试过 我不会这样说 I wouldn't say this if I hadn't tried it.
因为它所有的字母... 完全是瑞士的理念 You know... Because all the letters... it's the whole Swiss ideology;
设计它的人想把每个字母设计成一模一样 the guy who designed it tried to make all the letters look the same.
拜托？？？你知道吗 那叫做军队 不是人 Hello??? You know, that's called an army. That's not people.
那是一群戴着他娘的一模一样头盔的人 That's people having the same fucking helmet on.
它不鼓励任何的个人主义 It doesn't further individualism.
然而字体设计的目标总是把字体变得足够的个性化 And the aim with type design always is to make it individual enough
这样它才是有趣的 so that it's interesting.
当然任何字体 95% 的部分必须和其他字体看上去一样 But of course ninety-five percent of any alphabet has to look like the other alphabet
否则你就没法读懂它 otherwise you wouldn't be able to read it.
Meta 字体 艾瑞克·斯毕克曼，1991 年
我从未一觉醒来就想出一款新的字体 I've never sort of woken up with a typeface coming out,
你知道 像某些人那样... “我不得不这样做” 然后走到他们的... you know, like some people... I've got to do this, and they go to their,
随便什么 比如画板前 画出那些神奇的笔划 whatever, their easel, and these amazing brush strokes.
我没有那种冲动 你知道吗 我醒来的时候还经常想回去睡 I don't have that urge. You know, I wake up and usually I want to go back to sleep.
我的意思是 每个人都在作品中体现自己的个人经历 I mean, everybody puts their history into their work.
我很清楚我在画东西的时候 I certainly know that when I draw something it has
我很快 我很吵 我乱来一气 I'm fast, I'm loud, I'm chaotic,
我不太按规则办事 虽然我是德国人并且我喜爱规则 I'm not very rule based, even though I'm German and I love rules,
我是双子座 昨天刚过生日 所以本质上我非常散漫 I'm a Gemini, I had my birthday yesterday, so I'm all over the place essentially.
我永远守时 但那是在一年之后 你知道我的意思 I'm always on time, but a year late, you know what I mean,
但那时我就是分秒必争了 but then I'm on the second.
所以在我设计的字体里面会出现那些可怕的东西 So I have this horrible thing, which comes out in my typefaces.
它们从不会是完美的 它们总有些缺陷 They're never perfect. They always have a little edge
因为当我厌倦它们的时候我就把它们丢在一边 in the sense that I leave them alone when I get bored with them.
我知道有些人恨我 他们再过一百万年也不会用我的字体 I know there's people who hate me, who would never use one of my typefaces in a million years
但反过来 有些人会用我设计的每一款字体 and vice versa, people who would use any typeface I design
不是因为它们很好 或者因为它们能满足某种需求 not because it's good for them or it fits the purpose,
仅仅因为是我设计了它们 simply because I did it.
我认为我们都是这样的 有一个乐队 我买他们所有的 CD I think we alI do that. Certain bands I buy every CD from them;
其中有些很烂 some of them are crap.
但我买它 因为我总是买他们的 CD But I buy it because I've always bought their CDs
或者他们的音乐 or their music.
为什么人们固定地购买某些东西？品牌消减了人们的选择面 Why do people buy certain things? The brand rubs off on them.
字体也是一个品牌 And typefaces are a brand.
你用一种特定的“字体排印的声音”告诉“听众”这是属于你们的 You're telling an audience, This is for you, by using a certain typographic voice.
你在两英里开外就能认出万宝路的广告牌 You'd recognize a Marlboro brand two miles away
因为他们至始至终只用一种字体 because they use a typeface that they only use
你可以购买它 我这有 叫做 Neo Contact 谁都可以买 You can buy it; I have it; anyone can, it's called Neo Contact. Anybody can buy it,
但是万宝路把这个字体变成了他们的专有字体 but Marlboro have made the typeface theirs.
你可以在几里之外就可以认出任何万宝路的广告 You can recognize any Marlboro ad from miles away
就因为那个愚蠢的字体 because of that stupid typeface.
但假如他们用的是 Helvetica... 喂？？？恐怕就不太灵了 If they'd used Helvetica... Hello??? It wouldn't quite work.
某样东西的展示方式将影响人们对它的反应 The way something is presented will define the way you react to it.
所以你可以用三种不同的字体来传达同一个信息 So you can take the same message and present it in three different typefaces,
而人们的反应 看到的那一瞬间的情感反应 也会有所不同 the response to that, the immediate emotional response will be different.
而字体在这种传达之中 是一种终极武器 And the choice of typeface is the prime weapon,
内维尔·布罗迪 平面设计师
只要你想要 if you want, in that communication.
我说字体是商业广告和市场中的武器 是因为 And I say weapon largely because with commercial marketing and advertising,
广告中信息的传递方式将直接决定我们对它的反应 the way a message is dressed is going to define our reaction to that message in the advertising.
如果用一种垃圾风格的字体说 “买这条牛仔裤吧” So if it says, buy these jeans, and it's a grunge font,
你一定觉得那是一条满是划痕和撕裂的裤子 you would expect it to be some kind of ripped jeans
或者是地下服饰店才会有的东西 or to be sold in some kind of underground clothing store.
但如果相同的信息用 Helvetica 表现出来 If you see that same message in Helvetica,
你会觉得 那可能是一条 GAP 牌的牛仔裤 you know, it's probably on sale at GAP.
你知道那裤子会很干净 很贴身 穿上去也不显眼 It's going to be clean, that you're going to fit in, you're not going to stand out.
任何人 我认为 都是受下意识驱使的 All of us, I would suggest, are prompted in subliminal ways.
也许当你看到某个包装上的字体时 会心有所动 Maybe the feeling you have when you see a particular typographic choices used on a piece of packaging,
我喜欢那个样子 感觉不错 那就是我想要的产品 is just, I like the look of that, that feels good, that's my kind of product.
但那正是字体的神秘咒语在发挥它的威力 But that's the type casting its secret spell.
从某种角度说 Helvetica 就是一个俱乐部 一种会员资格的标记 In a way, Helvetica is a club. It's a mark of membership;
它是一个徽章 昭示则我们是现代社会的一分子 it's a badge that says we're part of modern society,
我们有着共同的理想 we share the same ideals.
它方圆周正 不会给人带来破坏和危险的感觉 It's well-rounded, it's not going to be damaging or dangerous.
Helvetica 的字母中有着一种近乎完美的收与放的平衡 Helvetica has almost like a perfect balance of push and pull in its letters,
那种完美的平衡似乎在对我们说 and that perfect balance sort of is saying to us,
很明显的 它在对我们说： well not sort of, it is saying to us,
别担心 你遇到的任何问题 或者说世界上的任何问题 Don't worry, any of the problems you're having, or problems in the world,
诸如如何穿过地铁 如何找到洗手间之类的问题 or problems getting through the subway or finding a bathroom,
所有那些问题都没什么大不了的 它们都会被解决 all those problems aren't going to spill over, they'll be contained,
或者实际上它们根本就不存在 and in fact maybe they don't exist.
我喜欢的一点是 如果说有一个严肃的字体 What I like is if this very serious typeface
告诉你在街道上该做什么 不该做什么 tells you the do's and don'ts of street life,
那一定是 Helvetica and it must be Helvetica at that moment.
拉尔斯·穆勒 平面设计师，出版人
作为企业识别字体的 Helvetica The image of Helvetica as the corporate typeface
给它自身留下了所谓“资本主义字体”的形象 made it the so-called typeface of capitalism,
我要站出来反对 which I would actually reject and say
我要说 它是社会主义的字体 it's the typeface of socialism
因为它到处都是 很容易得到 它欢迎业余爱好者 because it is available all over and it's inviting dilettantes and amateurs and
和所有的人 都来从事字体排印 everybody to do typography,
创造他们自己的字体设计 我认为这是件好事 to create their own type designs, and I think that's a good thing.
我想我把 Helvetica 叫做城市的香气是对的 I think I'm right calling Helvetica the perfume of the city.
它是某种我们平常熟视无睹的东西 It's just something we don't notice usually
但一旦它消失 会让我们非常的怀念 but we would miss very much if it wouldn't be there.
我想一个字体能发展到那种地步实在是让人吃惊 I think it's quite amazing that a typeface can advance to such a status
在我们的生活中 in our lives
任何风格的东西 都有一个审美疲劳的边际效用律 As is always the case with any style, there's a law of diminishing returns.
你看得越多 整个社会看得越多 The more you see it, the more the public sees it,
设计师们在字体排印和平面视觉上使用得越多 the more the designer uses those typographic and graphic solutions,
它就变得越是熟悉 平庸和极度无聊 the more familiar, predictable, and ultimately dull they become.
当我开始成为一个设计师的时候 这个行业的唯一“技巧” By the time I started as a designer, it sort of seemed there was only one trick in town,
大概就是 除了 Helvetica 你还能用什么？ which was like, what can you use instead of Helvetica.
你知道 A、B、H（血型） 所有的东西都在用 Helvetica You know, ABH, Anything But Helvetica.
其实我们需要有很多的无衬线字体 And you do need lot of sans-serif typefaces,
我觉得 Helvetica 被广泛地和过度的滥用了 but it seemed like Helvetica had just been used so much and overused so much
并且总是与如此众多巨大的、面无表情的事物关联在一起 and associated with so many big, faceless things
它已经失去了那种令人赏心悦目的能力 至少对我而言 that it had lost all its capacity even, to my eyes at least, to look nice.
在七十年代 特别是美国 And by the seventies, especially in America,
人们开始采取行动反抗 you start to get a reaction against,
那些千篇一律的设计风格 what it seems to those designers is the conformity,
那种同一化的单调乏味 the kind of dull blanket of sameness
这种设计方法已经蔓延全世界 that this way of designing is imposing on the world.
设计已经不再发自内心的想法 So something that had come out of idealism
而变成了纯粹的例行公事 这种情形需要有所改变 has by this time become merely routine, and there's a need for a change.
纽约
当你进入设计领域的时候 You come into design,
你也进入了历史上的一个坐标点 at the point that you start out in history,
薛·博兰
却不自知 without knowing that you're starting out in history,
通常来说你并不知道之前发生的故事 也不知道为什么发展到了那一步 and often you don't have a sense of what came before you and how it got there,
你也必定不知道将要发生什么 and you certainly don't know what's going to come after.
当我成为泰勒艺术学院的学生 进入设计领域时 And when I walked into design as a student at Tyler School of Art,
两种截然不同的设计文化给我很大的冲击 what struck me was sort of two separate cultures of design.
一种是公司文化 One was the corporate culture,
公司文化指的是大公司的视觉语言 and the corporate culture was the visual language of big corporations,
那个时候的公司文化毫无疑问地是 Helvetica and at that time they were persuasively Helvetica.
它们看上去很相似 在我看来有点法西斯 They looked alike, they looked a little fascistic to me.
它们很干净 干净得让我想去清理自己的房间 They were clean, it reminded me of cleaning up your room.
我甚至怀疑 这是我母亲的阴谋 为的是让我保持房间整洁 I felt like, this was some conspiracy of my mother's, to make me keep the house clean,
懂吧 我所有的有关混乱房间的青春期叛逆都回来了 you know, that all my messy room adolescent rebellion was coming back at me
而这次是 Helvetica 版本的 我要把它全部推翻 in the form of Helvetica, and I had to overthrow it.
嘿 我昨晚拿到了一些打印输出的东西 Hey, I got some printouts of the stuff from last night.
在道义上我也要反对 Helvetica I also was morally opposed to Helvetica,
因为我看到那些被 Helvetica 粉饰的大公司们 because I viewed the big corporations that were slathered in Helvetica
成为了越南战争的资助者 as, you know, sponsors of the Vietnam War.
所以 如果你用 Helvetica So therefore, if you used Helvetica,
那就意味着你赞同越南战争 it meant that you were in favor of the Vietnam War,
所以你怎么能用它呢？ so how could you use it?
当时最酷的东西是唱片专辑的封套 之字形的卷桶纸 What looked cool to me at that point were record album covers, Zig-Zag rolling papers,
麻醉生命和反文化的装备 the accoutrements of dope life and counterculture,
显然还有地下报纸和杂志 还有图钉工作室 obviously underground newspapers and magazines, and Pushpin Studios.
我读大学的时候 图钉工作室是最火的 Pushpin Studios was the height of, at the time I was in college,
所有人的愿望是 去那里工作 做出像他们那样充满灵感的作品 everybody's ambition. To work there, to do work that was as inspiring as their work,
他们的作品看上去是那样的鲜活 机智 寓意丰富 because it seemed fresh and alive and witty and content-laden,
而西摩·切瓦斯特和米尔顿·格拉泽真的很会画画 aside from the fact that Seymour Chwast and Milton Glaser could really draw.
我也想做出那样的作品 And I wanted to make work that looked like that.
当我在泰勒艺术学院读书的时候 我想成为一个插画师 When I was at Tyler, I wanted to be an illustrator,
我的老师叫史坦尼斯劳·扎戈斯基 and I had a teacher named Stanislaw Zagorski.
我从来就不知道如何在自己的设计中安排字体和排版 And I never knew what to do with the typography on my designs.
学校作业是设计书籍封面和唱片封套 We would make book covers and record covers as school projects,
我会去当地的艺术商店：Sam Flax 购买 Helvetica 的转印字 and I'd go to the local art store, I'd go to Sam Flax, and I'd buy Helvetica as press type,
我把买到的字体擦印到唱片封套的角上 左对齐 and I'd rub it down in the corner of the album the way I thought it was supposed to be, kind of flush left.
当然它们从来也排不整齐 会裂开或者破损 And of course it would never line up properly and thing would crackle and break
那真是可怕 and it'd be terrible.
扎戈斯基老师告诉我 别用转印字了 And Zagorski told me to let go of the press type,
自己画字体上去 and illustrate the type.
我恍然大悟 原来字体排印也可以是有个性的 And it hadn't dawned on me that typography could have personality
就像画画一样是有个性的 the way drawing did.
我意识到字体是有灵魂的 能够传达情绪 I realized that type had spirit and could convey mood,
它可以成为你自己独有的媒介 and that it could be your own medium,
它有着自己的韵味 一种能表达任何东西的能力 that it was its own palate, a broad palate to express all kinds of things.
所以我画了这期 AIGA 年报的封面 So I painted this cover the AlGA Annual,
这期 AIGA 年报的标题是《美国平面设计》 and the title of the AlGA Annual was Graphic Design U.S.A.
我决定从字面上精确地表达这个题目 And I decided I would take the title literally
对美国平面设计做某种分析 and sort of analyze what Graphic Design U.S.A. was,
于是我决定把美国每一个州都列出来 so I decided what I'd do is list every state in the United States,
加上人们使用 Helvetica 的百分比 and the percentage of people who used Helvetica.
我没有科学的证据证明每一个州具体有多少人在用 Helvetica And I didn't have any scientific evidence of knowing what percentage of people in each state used Helvetica,
所以我决定基于最近一次里根总统的选举 so I decided to base it on the last Reagan election.
所有支持里根的州 So that the states that went for Reagan
都有超过 50% 的人使用 Helvetica all had more than 50% of the people who used Helvetica.
（如果说 Helvetica 是越南战争的字体 If Helvetica was the typeface of the Vietnam War,
那这场战争的字体是什么) what's the typeface of this war?
伊拉克战争？ The Iraqi War?
Helvetica Helvetica.
相同的历史时期 我的意思是 历史重演了 Same time period, I mean it is, it's the same, it repeated.
那就是我们为什么在那里 Helvetica 导致的 That's why we're there. Helvetica caused it.
在后现代时期 设计师们打破一切规矩 And so in the Postmodern period, designers were breaking things up.
他们希望远离有序、干净、柔顺的设计 They wanted to get away from the orderly, clean, smooth surface of design
远离他们所见的一切恐怖的匠气的东西 the horrible slickness of it all, as they saw it
创造出具有生命活力的作品 and produce something that had vitality.
总的来说 对于现代主义 I myself got fairly disappointed
我感到相当的失望 with Modernism in general.
施德明
它实在无聊透顶 It simply became boring.
如果我现在看见一本小册子 有大量的留白 If I see a brochure now, with lots of white space
上面有六行 Helvetica that has, you know, like six lines of Helvetica up on the top
下面是一个抽象的小 logo and a little abstract logo on the bottom
然后配一张商务人士走路的照片 and a picture of a businessman walking somewhere,
整个东西在对我说 the overall communication that says to me is,
不要读我 因为我会让你无聊到死 Do Not Read Me, because I will bore the shit out of you
不只是在视觉上 而且在内容上 not just visually, but also in content
因为内容和视觉往往是一致的 because the content will likely say the same as it says to me visually.
我 15 、16、 17 岁的时候参加过一些很糟糕的摇滚乐队 I was in terrible rock bands when I was fifteen, sixteen, seventeen,
我想正是那段经历让我接触到唱片封面设计 and I think through that experience got close to the album cover
实际上我上艺术院校也就是因为唱片封面 and essentially I went to art school because of album covers.
我可能是被教育要用自己的双手做一切事情的最后一代人了 I probably was the last generation who got taught doing everything by hand,
所以你懂的 我们用笔刷来画出 10 磅的字体 so you know, we drew 10 pt. type with a brush.
总的来说 查阅字体手册对我来说永远是一件很无聊的事 In general, I was always fairly bored, and you know, looking at type books
翻来覆去地考虑 某个项目到底该选择哪种字体 and deciding over and over again which type to pick for a certain project.
那实在不是一件很有趣的任务 It just didn't seem a very interesting task to do.
所以我总是想做 CD 封套的设计 So here and there I think with the records, with the CD covers,
我们开始设计自己的字体 we started to do our own type
有一次 我为娄·里德设计一个封套 and I think there was one instance, it was for a Lou Reed cover,
后来这个手写字体因此声名远扬 where this hand drawn typography resonated,
无数的设计项目找上门来 什么方向的都有 and numerous projects came out in that vein, in all sorts of directions.
你懂的 有些方向比较有趣 有些则很严肃 You know, in a more funny direction and in a more serious direction,
有一次为了做一张讲座的海报 一个实习生在我皮肤上割出了字体 where one time an intern carved a hand type into my skin for a lecture poster.
字体存在于一瞬间 在一幅独立的图像中 The type in an instant, in a single image,
自述了它的诞生 它的由来 tells the story of its making, tells you about its process,
以一种非常优雅的方式 一种非常快速的方式 in a very elegant way, in a very fast way.
那件字体排印作品在设计圈内出人意料地出名了 That typography strangely became so well known, just within the design community
当然 一些人认为那就是我们的全部成就 of course, that some people thought that's all we do,
谢天谢地 那并不是事实 which thankfully is not the case.
我很怀疑那些人只用三、四种字体的做法是否正确 Well, I always thought that approach of people using only three or four typefaces very suspect.
我想如果是作为设计个案 那样做可能会很有趣 I think this could be interesting to do for a single project
作为一种设定限制的练习 让自己集中精神 as an exercise to put up additional limitations in order to focus yourself.
但作为一个终身的策略 But as a strategy over a lifetime
我想就好比一个作家说 I think it's akin to a writer saying,
我打算一辈子就用这三四个词来写作 I'm only going to write in three or four words.
没错 你可以那样做 但首先 你为什么这样做？ Yes, you could probably do it, but for one why would you,
其次 一辈子这么做是否真的会产生大量有趣的作品？ and for the second would it really yield an interesting body of work over a lifetime?
设计师们希望表达自己的主观看法 Designers wanted to express their subjectivity,
他们对这个世界的亲身感受 their own feelings about the world,
他们通过设计来表达自己的感觉 their sense that they had something to say through design,
通过他们对设计的选择表达出来 through the design choices they made.
当然这样就招来了争议 And of course this caused controversy.
举个例子 假设是六十年代设计界的教父：马西莫·维涅里 If you take a figure like Massimo Vignelli, who'd been one of the Sixties' high priests,
他的公司叫 Unimark with his company Unimark,
字面上的意思是“始终一致的表达” it's right there in the name, Unimark, the idea of a uniform kind of expression.
当他面对这个新作品 When he looked at this new work,
这个充满表现力的、主观的、狂放的作品 this expressive, subjective, wayward,
以及这种完全不讲理的新设计方式 他会作何感想？ to his way of thinking irrational new way of designing,
“看起来那些野蛮人不只是呆在门口 It seemed like the barbarians were not only at the gate,
他们已经如暴风般夺门而入并占领了一切” but they'd stormed through and they'd taken over.
七十年代 年轻的一代都喜欢追逐迷幻剂一样的字体 In the '70s, the young generation was after psychedelic type,
什么样的垃圾你都可以弄到 and all the junk that you could find.
到了八十年代 他们的思想完全乱作一团 And also in the '80s, with their minds completely confused
他们被一种叫做“后现代主义”的病感染 by that... disease that was called Postmodernism,
人们像无头的鸡一样四处乱窜 people were just going around like chickens without their heads,
使用一切所谓“不现代”的字体 by using all kinds of typefaces that came around that could say "not modern".
他们不知道他们在乎什么 They didn't know what they were caring for,
他们只知道他们要反对什么 懂吧 they only knew about what they were against. You know.
他们要反对的就是 Helvetica And what they were against was Helvetica.
我并没有受过正式的训练 I had no formal training in the field,
就我而言 我从不学那些我“应该”学习的知识 In my case I never learned all the things I wasn't supposed to do.
我只学我感兴趣的东西 I just did what made sense to me.
大卫·卡尔森
我只是在不断的尝试 I was just experimenting really.
所以当人们开始感到失望时 我觉得无法理解 So when people started getting really upset, I didn't really understand why.
我说 这有什么大不了的？你们在说什么？ I'd say, "What's the big deal? What are you talking about?"
很多年以后有人对我解释了其中的原因 And it was many years later that somebody explained to me,
可能比我现在解释得更明白些 probably better than I can explain it now,
大体上是这样 有一拨人花了很多时间组织起来 is that basically there was this group that spent a lot of time trying to organize things,
好不容易让某个系统运行起来 and get some kind of system going,
然后他们看着我走进来把它扔出了窗外 and they saw me as coming in and throwing that out the window.
我可能会那样做 但这不是原因 Which I might have done, but it wasn't the starting point
我并不是有意那样做的 and it wasn't the plan.
我在之后很晚才知道了“现代主义”之类的术语 And you know... Only much later did I learn the terms Modernism, and this and that.
Ray Gun 杂志 很有实验性质 Ray Gun Magazine was very much experimental,
很彻底的实验性 每一期我们都作很多尝试 it was completely experimental. Every issue we'd try a lot of things
很多尝试都奏效 and a lot of them worked,
也有些不太灵的 and a lot of them didn't work.
我从来不看印刷样稿 所以很多时候会有些错误 I never saw proofs so a lot of times there were just mistakes,
最低级的错误 人们会写长篇大论 flat-out mistakes, that people would write long essays on
为什么我把这个黑色的字 放在了一个黑色靴子或者别的什么上面？ why I did this black type on a black boot, or something.
不 我没见过印刷样稿 你们在讨论什么？ No, I never saw a proof, what are you talking about?
要做好那些比较主观的、诠释性的作品不是那么简单的 It's very hard to do the more subjective, interpretive stuff well.
你知道 我可以教大街上的任何人 You know, I can teach anybody off the street
如何设计一个像模像样的商业名片或简报 how to design a reasonable business card or newsletter.
但是如果我把同一拨人带去听一张 CD But if I bring the same group off the street and play a CD
然后说 “好 现在让我们为那段音乐设计一个封套” and say, "Okay, now let's interpret that music for a cover,
十个人中有九个会感到手足无措 well 9 out of 10 are going to be lost
他们会做出一些毫无新意的东西 and are going to do something corny and expected,
但会有人做出一些令人吃惊的东西 and one person is going to do something amazing
因为那段音乐传达给他们一些东西 将他们引向某个方向 because that music spoke to them and it sent them in some direction
每个人去的方向都不一样 但我在乎的正是这些有意思的、 that nobody else could go. And that's the area to me where it gets more interesting
激动人心的、更情绪化的地方 and exciting, and more emotional.
最好的作品就是这样来的 And that's where the best work comes from.
这是篇关于歌手布莱恩·费瑞的文章 This is an article on the singer Bryan Ferry,
我读起来的时候 和我以前读过的那么多文章没什么区别 and when I read the article it was very much like so many of these others I had read,
我就像是 哦天啊 那有多让人失望 多么的无聊啊 and I was like, oh man, how disappointing, how boring.
然后我看了看我所有的字体 现在差不多有成百上千了 And I went through all my fonts, which at the time would've been hundreds and hundreds,
呃 好吧 仍然是那个问题... uhm, well, it still is for that matter, but...
我找不到使这篇文章的看上去不那么恶心和乏味的字体 and didn't find one that seemed to fit my disgust and boredom with this article.
最终我在列表的最底部找到了 Dingbats And I finally came to the bottom and there was Dingbats,
现在的名字叫 Zapf Dingbats 所以按字母排序它是最后一个 which of course now it's Zapf Dingbats so it's literally the last one.
然后我想 既然这篇文章如此无聊 不值一读 And I was like, well it's boring and not worth reading,
那为什么不用 Zapf Dingbats 来排版？ why not do it in Zapf Dingbats?
这也是一个字体啊 所以就全部用 Dingbats 好了 It's a font. So it's all set in Dingbats,
这真的是个字体 你可以把它全选换成 Helvetica 或者别的什么字体 it is the actual font, you could highlight it and make it Helvetica or something
然后你就可以阅读了 and you'd be able to read it
但是它的确不值 它写得实在不是很好 but it really wouldn't be worthwhile, it's not very well-written.
别把易读性和信息传达混为一谈 Don't confuse legibility with communication.
某样东西清晰易读 并不说明它能能传达信息 Just because something's legible, doesn't mean it communicates
更重要的是 并不意味着它传达了正确的信息 And more importantly doesn't mean it communicates the right thing.
反过来说 某个东西或许开始的时候很难辨识 And vice-versa, something that may be difficult to initially read
但它传达了一种全然不同的信息 maybe sending a completely different message
同时又切合主题 that is valid for where it's being used,
那么 或许它就是需要读者多花点时间和心思的 and that may require a little more time or the involvement of the reader.
这种方式表达的效果往往要更为强烈 But it almost seems stronger the other way,
如果有条非常重要的信息用一种平凡无聊的方式排出来 if something is a very important message and it's set in a boring, non-descript way,
这条消息很可能就被人忽略了 the message can be lost.
我说这一点“含咖啡因”的意思也没有！ I mean that doesn't say "caffeinated"!
就像说“你好”一样没有实际含义 It's just like, hello?
（为什么没有呢？） Why Not?
它就呆在那儿！完全嗅不出咖啡因的味道来! It's just sitting there! There's nothing caffeinated about it!
这个也不带一点“外遇 (extramarital)”的意思 There's nothing "extramaritaI" about that.
这个就更没有“阳光 (sunshine)”了 There's no "sunshine" here.
这可多没意思 不是个有趣的“沙地（sandlot）” That's no fun, that's not a fun sandlot.
“爆炸（explosion）”在哪里？ Where's the explosion?
这也可能是第一次约会（“第三次约会”） This could be the first date.
这个倒还凑合 这些灰狗巴士是挺无聊的 This might be close, these buses are kind of boring.
“简洁有力”和“空洞乏味”之间的界限其实很模糊 There's a very thin line between simple and clean and powerful, and simple and clean and boring.
这就是所谓垃圾风格字体设计的兴起 That was sort of the rise of what's referred to as grunge typography,
并成为了二、三、四、五年内吞噬一切的“美学” and that became an all-consuming aesthetic for two, three, four, five years
这种趋势从其发端的大师们开始 as that trend worked its way down from the masters who originated it
一直延伸到那些时常犯错的家伙 to anyone who sort of already had a tendency to make mistakes
他们忽然之间发现自己可以胜任了 and all of sudden found that they looked good now instead of incompetent,
不再像以前那样白痴无能 which is how they looked the day before.
垃圾时代末期的字体排印设计残破不堪 Typography was so broken by the end of the grunge period,
就像置身于一堆混乱之中 you know, just lying there in a twisted heap,
所有的规则都被抛弃了 前方看不到出路 all rules cast aside, no apparent way forward,
所以这些设计师们在九十年代末能做的就是回归 that all those designers could perhaps do by the late nineties was to go back
回归到早期的设计方式 to return to an earlier way of designing,
但需要用一套新的理论来支持它 but with a new set of theories to support it.
欧文·布林克斯
玛丽·斯托克
对我们而言 现代主义确实有着更颠覆的一面 For us, modernism does have a more subversive side.
丹尼·范登邓根
我认为整个“现代主义” I think that the whole image of modernism
基本上就是“功能主义” as something that is primarily concerned with functionalism,
加“实用主义”后者是很晚才出现的 utilitarianism, that is something that emerged much later,
属于某种后期现代主义 that is a sort of a late-modernist thing.
我觉得早期的现代主义运动 I think the early-modernist movements,
像达达主义、未来主义、超现实主义 Like Dadaism, Futurism, Surrealism,
都有着它们颠覆的一面 all had their more subversive sides
以及... 该怎么说呢 and their more, how do you call it, the more...
... 更辨证的一面 所以它们都有其针对的目标 dialectical sides, so they went against something.
我们并不反对那样的实验 It's not that we are against that experimentation
像大卫·卡尔森和 Emigre 和 Fuse 和内维尔·布罗迪所做的 that people like David Carson and Emigre and Fuse, that Neville Brody did.
我觉得我们所做的其实是对他们的实验的一种延伸 We think what we do is a sort of an extension of that.
每一次都要搜寻新的字体让我们疲惫不堪 All that hunting to the next typeface every time, it took a lot of energy,
我还记得学生时代 我们常常会很失望 and I can still remember as students that we were really disappointed
因为你想用的某个字体被别人用了 because you wanted to use a certain typeface and then you saw somebody else had used it,
所以你就不能用它了 因为你想显得有原创性 and then you couldn't use it because you wanted to be original.
用 Helvetica 就根本不存在这个问题 因为人人都在用它 And with Helvetica this whole problem is non-existent because everybody's using Helvetica.
很多人觉得 新一代设计师们对 Helvetica 这类字体的使用方式 A lot of people see the way a young generation of designers uses a typeface such as Helvetica
相当的肤浅 只是在照搬某种风格 as a more superficial way, as a sort of appropriation of a style.
我想我们完全不能同意 I think we would very much disagree with that.
我们三个都是七十年代出生的 I think all three of us grew up in the '70s
当时的荷兰还在后期现代主义的“最后统治”之下 in the Netherlands which was dominated by the last moment of late Modernism.
比如我出生和成长的城市鹿特丹 For example, the city I was born in and grew up in, Rotterdam,
标志字体是维姆·克劳威尔设计的 the logotype was designed by Wim Crouwel,
邮票是克劳威尔设计的 the stamps were designed by Crouwel,
电话簿也是克劳威尔设计的 the telephone book was designed by Crouwel,
我们学校里用的地图册还是克劳威尔设计的 the atlas that we used in school was designed by Crouwel.
所以对我们来说 Helvetica 就好像是我们的母语一样 So for us it is almost like a natural mother tongue,
是非常自然的一件事 that's something really natural.
并非我们... 我是说 很多人觉得你是从书本上看到 It's not that we... I mean, a lot of people think you sort of study it
然后抄袭过来 但是 from books and then copy it or something, but
我更愿意认为它早已流淌在我们的血液里 I would really say that it's almost in our blood.
还有一件有趣的事 很多人认为 Helvetica 有可能会导致 It's also funny because a lot of people connect Helvetica
全球化和标准化的危险 sometimes with the dangers of globalization and standardization.
我一点不担心这种情况 I'm not afraid for that quality at all
因为人人都可以调整它来适应自己的需要 because I'm just know that everybody can put a twist on it.
我认为 在字体间距中体现出的国家特色 丝毫不亚于字体本身 I think you can put as much nationality in the spacing of a typeface as in the typeface itself or something else.
我认为像克劳威尔他们对 Helvetica 的使用就是典型荷兰式的 And I think the way people like Crouwel use Helvetica is typically Dutch, I think,
所以我向来对所谓 and that's why I'm never really impressed by the sort of argument
“Helvetica 是一个全球化怪物”这样的观点不以为然 that Helvetica is a sort of global monster.
伦敦
我并不是那种真正意义上的字体设计师 I'm not one of those people who is a real typographer,
不知道那些关于字母的华丽词汇 I don't know all the fancy words for all the letters,
比如“连字”啦、“上伸部”、“下降部”之类的东西 and the sort of ligatures and ascenders and descenders and all that kind of thing.
我只是... 只是对某些东西更有感觉 I just more, sort of, react to certain things,
迈克尔·C·普雷斯 Build 工作室
只是把自己感觉对味的东西做出来 and just do what I feel is right,
所以我从来不是那种传统意义上的“字体设计师” so I'm never sort of a classical type guy.
我为某些事物所着迷 喜欢收集一些东西 So I get obsessed about things, I collect things,
你看 我有这么多零碎的纸片 来自街边常见的事物 you know, I've got so many bits and scraps of paper, of things that you find on the street,
以及包装纸 它们让非常普通的事物变得漂亮起来 or wrappers. It's just making something beautiful out of something very ordinary.
这是我所喜欢的 平常的东西 That's what I really enjoy, the ordinary things
大多数人可能会一瞥而过 但是我觉得它们很漂亮 that most people would just gloss over, I find really beautiful.
用设计的语言来说 我觉得最重要的是 The biggest thing for me in terms of design
“于细微处获得情感上的回馈” is to get a sort of emotional response from a piece.
我觉得这是最棒的设计 That's some of the best design, I think.
我观察周遭的事物 从中获得创作灵感 I see stuff and to me, if it makes me go,
我希望我做出好的作品 这对我来说是最重要的事情 I wish I'd done that, that for me is the biggest thing, you know.
或者让你感到 哇 这真不错 Or you just get this real whooo, kind of like, oooh, that's nice.
对我而言 这些都是情感的回馈 For me, it's all about that emotional response.
我一直很想做的一件事是为飞机设计引导标识 One of the things I've always really wanted to design is airplane signage,
以及航空公司的视觉识别 an identity for an airline.
我很想设计制服 又或者是座椅等一整套的东西 I'd love to do the uniforms, or you know, seats and the whole thing, you know,
还有卡车之类的东西 我想一定会很棒的 你懂的 还有很多... the trucks and that kind of thing. I think it would be brilliant. You know, the sort of...
你看 我做这些十二英寸的唱片封套设计都那么久了 You know, I've done these twelve-inch sleeves for so long;
现在我想做些更“大号”的设计 I want to go a little bit bigger scale now, you know.
我希望能设计经得起时间考验的东西 It's that idea that something's designed to stand the test of time,
最好在二三十年后还有人使用 and hopefully some of the things I'm designing will be still being used in twenty, thirty years.
我会非常开心 I'd love to think that.
我三年前结的婚 当时我设计了婚礼的请柬 I got married about three years ago. I did the wedding invites,
相信我 这是身为一个平面设计师最糟糕的工作 which believe me, is just the worst job you can ever do as a graphic designer.
我曾做过别人的婚礼请柬 但我永远都不想再做了 I've done other people's wedding invites, and I'll never do one again.
这是我做过压力最大的一个工作 It's the most stressful job I've ever had,
和岳母打交道真的很恐怖 但我还是做了我们自己的 dealing with mother in laws is just horrific. But I did ours,
然后在婚礼仪程卡上 and on the order of service
为感谢 Helvetica 我把马克斯·米丁格写在了致谢名单中 I did a little credit to give thanks to Max Miedinger for Helvetica.
但被我妻子否决了 我只好把他从名单中去掉了 But my wife vetoed that; I had to take it off the invite.
不过这蛮搞笑的... But, yeah, it was funny...
我记得我开始用 Helvetica 是在 DR （设计共和国）的时候 I think I fell into the step of Helvetica when I was at DR.
我总是很享受使用 Helvetica 的感觉 I always really enjoy using Helvetica
因为... 有些人说他们要用不同的字体来表达不同的意思 because... some people say they use a different typeface because it gives a different feeling.
但我却很乐意接受挑战 让 Helvetica 用不同的方式说话 And I really enjoy the challenge of making Helvetica speak in different ways.
它到现在已经有五十年的历史了 You know, it's been around for fifty years, coming up,
给人的感觉却还跟新的一样... 当然 它不是有意设计得如此奇妙的 and it's just as fresh as it was... obviously, it wasn't intended to be this cool thing,
但它就是这么一款美好的字体 but it's just a beautiful font.
苏黎世
我们现在对 Helvetica We are less obsessed with Helvetica
没有以前那么着迷了 than we used to be.
没错 我们对它曾经非常着迷 但现在没那么厉害了 Yes, we were really obsessed with Helvetica, yet not too more, so much.
不过我们还是能接受它的存在 We accepted it somehow... We came to a point where we accepted that it's just there.
曼努埃尔·克雷布斯
迪米特里·布鲁尼
我们喜欢限制 We like restrictions.
没有限制我们什么也做不了 We can't operate, we can do nothing without restrictions.
限制越多 我们就越开心 The more restrictions we have, the more happy we are.
在我们读书的时候 When we started school,
那时平面设计的风云人物是布罗迪和卡尔森他们 the influences in graphic design were like Brody and Carson.
到后来我们才真正仔细研究了约瑟夫·米勒-布罗克曼的作品 It's only after that we really looked at Josef Müller-Brockmann's work,
以及六十年代的瑞士字体排印设计 and '60s Swiss Typography.
所以在我们刚启动这间工作室的时候说过 When we started the office we really said
我们希望回顾过去 we wanted to look more back,
找到更结构化的设计 to find more structured design.
对我们来说 精简我们使用的元素是很重要的 For us it's very important to reduce the elements we use.
在用到字体时 我们会尽可能地只用一种字体 When it comes to type, we will only use, if possible, one typeface,
或两种 而且我们尽可能只用一种字号 or two, and if possible we will use one size.
比如我们不喜欢人文主义的字体 We don't like humanistic typefaces for example,
我们选用的字体必须更具理性色彩 we like it... It must be more rational
否则就可能包含过多表达 because otherwise it has too much expression.
Simple 字体 Norm 平面设计组合，2002 年
我们觉得 Helvetica 暗含了某种设计的规范 We think that Helvetica contains somehow a design program.
它会将你引至某种特定的语言 It will lead you to a certain language also,
这也是 Helvetica 成功的秘诀之一 and this is also one of the secrets of the success of Helvetica
就是它自身已经包含了 that in itself it is already
某种特定的风格 某种特定的美感 it has a certain style, a certain aesthetic
你就会这么用它 你懂的 that you will just use it like that, you know,
因为这个字体 它本身要求这么做 because of the typeface, because the typeface wants it like that.
你只要听从它的指令照做就行了 You wilI do what the typeface wants you to do.
如果你不是个好的设计师 或者你本来就不是设计师 If you are not a good designer, or if you are not a designer,
用固定字号的 Helvetica 粗体就是了 just use Helvetica Bold in one size,
比如用在宣传单页上... 它就会... 很好看 Like for a flyer... it looks good.
很可能 至少在平面设计的潮流上 So it may very well be that when it comes to trends,
我们已经抵达了历史的终点 at least in graphic design, we've reached sort of the end of history.
钟摆往复运动 不会再摆向第三个方向 And the pendulum that swings back and forth doesn't have any more directions it can swing in.
最终的潮流可能就是生产方式完全为大众所用 The final trend may simply be the completely democratic distribution of the means of production
每个希望能拥有的人 每个负担得起的人都能得到 to anyone who wants it or anyone who can afford it.
你花上几千块钱就能拥有一个音乐工作室 You can have a music studio for a couple thousand bucks,
花上一万美元就能有一间电影工作室 you can have a film studio for ten grand,
你当然也可以花上一两千美元来成为一个设计师 you definitely can be a designer with one or two thousand dollars,
而且基本上 and have basically
你使用的工具和那些专业的人士也不会相差太远 similar tools as the people who do this for a living.
当这些人都有了好的设计工具 他们就会 If all these people have the tools to make good design,
意识到到事情并不那么简单 they realize that it ain't that easy.
设计不是打开一个 CorelDraw 或 PowerPoint 模板那么简单 You know, it's not just opening a template in CorelDraw or in Powerpoint.
拥有某个软件的最新版本并不是设计 It's not about having the latest version of whatever program.
如果你没有眼力 如果你没有对设计的感觉 If you don't have the eye, if you don't a sense of design,
软件也不可能赋予你 the program's not going to give it to you.
我记得几年前 有个做电台广告的朋友 I remember, years ago, a friend of mine who produced radio commercials
叫五个人到 CBS 唱片公司的走廊去 had five guys go out in the hallway of CBS Records
去唱海滩男孩的“Round Round Get Around, I Get Around” and sing the beginning of "Round Round Get Around, I Get Around"
这首歌的开头 by the Beach Boys.
他们确实很努力 他们花了一个星期来排练 把和声练准 And they really tried, they rehearsed for a week to get their harmonies right,
而且他们是所在楼层里唱歌唱得最好的 and they were the best vocalists who worked in that department on that floor,
而且他们还很热爱音乐 and they loved music.
然后他们出来演唱了 And they went out and they sang it,
当然他们唱得非常的糟糕... and of course they were totally flat and sounded horribly...
太糟糕了 但他们排练过了 然后 terrible. But they'd rehearsed. And then
这个广告的画外音说：“现在你该知道海滩男孩唱得有多好了吧” the voiceover for the commercial said, "Now you can appreciate the Beach Boys."
这和我们现在所说的其实是一样的 And it's really sort of the same thing.
你越是接近它 对它看得越多 The closer you come to it, and the more you see it,
就越能够欣赏它的优秀 the more you appreciate it when it's terrific.
现在优秀的年轻字体设计师越来越多了 比以往任何时候都要多 There are more good, young type designers
我所说的“年轻”指的是现在二十多岁 三十出头的 by young I mean probably late twenties, early thirties now, than at any time in history.
谁也不知道他们会设计出怎样的字体 So who knows what typefaces they will design
什么样的风格... 但他们会好起来 in terms of style and so on. But they'll be good.
在我看来 这就是巨大的进步 And... You know, to my way of thinking, that is a huge gain,
受益于这些更大众、更普及的技术 a huge benefit that comes with this more democratic, more accessible technology.
Helvetica 中就是有着某种特质 There's just something about Helvetica.
人们不断的说“我对 Helvetica 做了某种改进” Something about the fact that people keep saying I've come up with an improvement of Helvetica.
但这些改进从来不会讨好 And it never is really good.
我不知道字体设计中是否还存在某些尚未发现的科学 You know, I wonder whether or not somehow there's some whole undiscovered science of typography
能够解释出 并非因为我们已经看惯了 Helvetica that would sort of say it's not just because we're used to seeing it,
也并非因为它和那些 it's not just because it was associated with all these things
我们认为的“权威”联系在了一起 that we consider authoritative,
而是因为这个字体本身具有的一种内在的合理性 but it somehow has this kind of inherent rightness.
比如 小写的 a 运用曲线中的合理性 You know, the rightness of the way the lowercase a meets the curve,
和大写的 G 下划的那一竖的合理性 the rightness of the way the G has the thing that comes down,
还有 c 的笔画是这样而不是那样 the rightness of the way the c strokes are like that instead of that.
我的意思是 我不认为这些合理性完全是由 I mean, I wouldn't have believed that those things actually could be right or wrong
个人的欣赏品味所决定的 as opposed to someone's tastes.
这个有着近五十年历史的东西 Yet we sort of have nearly fifty years of history of the thing just sitting there
在那儿轻蔑地等着我们去修正它 但它看上去就是那样的无懈可击 daring people to fix it. And it seems to be unfixable.
世界永远在变 时代在变 It's always changing, time is changing,
对字体的欣赏也在发生很大的改变 the appreciation of typefaces is changing very much.
我们现在为某个项目选择某个字体的原因 Why you grab a certain typeface for a certain job
和我们在五十年代时为某个项目选择某个字体有着完全不同的含义 has a different meaning than we grabbed a typeface in the fifties for a certain job.
人永远都是时代的孩子 无法跳出你所处的时代 You are always child of your time, and you cannot step out of that.
我们现有的风气是 视觉交流的观念 What we have is a climate now in which the very idea of visual communication
和平面设计 如果我们还愿意这么叫的话 的观念 and graphic design, if we still want to call it that,
已获得广泛的认可 is accepted by many more people.
他们了解了 他们理解了 他们开始把图形交流 They get it. They understand it. They're starting to see graphic communication
视为对自己身份的一种表达 as an expression of their own identity.
一个经典的例子是 那些社交网站程序 And the classic case of this is the social networking programs
比如 MySpace 在那你可以定制自己的个人资料 such as MySpace, where you can customize your profile.
你可以修改背景 可以加入图片 You can change the background, you can put pictures in,
随心所欲的更换字体 you can change the typeface to anything you want,
而你所做的这些选择 and those choices, those decisions you make,
就表明了你是什么样的人 你开始关心这个 become expressions of who you are. You start to care about it, in the way
就像关心你的衣着 那也是你个人身份的表达 you care about the clothing you're wearing as an expression of who you are,
又或是你的发型之类 or your haircut or whatever,
还有你如何装饰自己的公寓... 等等这一切 or how you decorate your apartment... All of those things.
你知道 我们接受了以这种方式表达自我的观念 You know, we accept the idea of identity being expressed in that way,
通过对消费的选择来表达自己的身份 through these consumer choices.
好吧 这已经在视觉交流的圈子中发生 Well, now it's happening in the sphere of visual communication
而且工具也在变得越来越精密 and there's no reason as the tools become ever more sophisticated,
那它就能一直发展 发展 发展下去 why this just won't go on developing, devoloping and developing.
本中文字幕由谭宏涛（snl）、朱亚力（Alex）、厉致谦（colourphilosoph） 江疆（jjgod）、杜钦（cognito）共同翻译完成 ass 由半嚣张制作 Measureless 修改部分中文翻译，字幕轨道以及字体排版 请勿用于商业目的